Big Society: What would Jemina Durning think?

Cleggmeron cuts necessitate the "Big Society" response which of course will be a post code lottery of provision for all the victims of the cuts. Of course no one will disagree with Dave's attractive sounding rave but I have difficulty in being able to understand what he really means by all this talk. Devolving power to make cuts and make do and mend is what is about to happen. Does he expect the newly unemployed public sector workers clutching their £65 quid a week to touch their forelocks and say "god bless you guv where can I help out"!

Perhaps he could start with the bankers and their compulsion to lend on commercial terms to charities. He could say "Ask not what the Bank of England can do for you but ask yourself what you can do for the country (and your many victims)".

..."this is quite different from what politicians have offered in the past".

Possibly; I think it would be more correct to say "this is quite different from what politicians have expected in the past".

That apart I am of the view that the problem with the "Big Society" is an absence of clarity over what it actually means. We can be absolutely certain that it doesn't mean that "society" will be invited to express its views on (say) capital punishment or taming the monster that is the EU. Or, for that matter, insist those convicted of an offence will actually be required to do some socially useful work as an alternative to prison. Mrs Radiowonk is a Magistrate and is forever frustrated by her and her colleagues' inability to enforce worthwhile sentences.

In the environs of Radiowonk Towers there are roadsigns that are permanently covered in green algae that no - one appears to do anything about. Small rivers in local parks are littered with fallen branches (and larger!) that trap other rubbish and impede the flow of water after heavy rain, and yet when I ask her why the recently convicted aren't required to carry out remedial work the inevitable answer is "health and safety". I wonder if the "Big Society" will have these and similar tasks dumped upon it?

Another worry is that in the future something that has been devolved to the "Big Society" fails to happen; the government and DC in particular will be able to slope shoulders and proclaim "nothing to do with us; Big Society has failed to do its duty".

In respect of libraries and similar establishments now seen as vulnerable to closure there is ample anecdotal evidence to suggest that some local authorities are playing politics with the contraction of their money supply and ditching everything that is superfically at any rate easy to ditch without having to take a close look at their own profligacy in the realm of non - jobs that have been a major growth area over the last few years. Tut tut that would never do, would it?

It genuinely grieves me (as a small c conservative) that David Cameron has adopted this idea (I cannot ascribe the word "policy" to it yet as there appears to be a complete lack of meaningful detail) when it will almost certainly blow up in his face. I hope he hasn't fallen into the trap of thinking that just because he says something that it will happen in just the way he intends. Unless, of course, volunteering is about to be made compulsory by law. (Discuss!)

I must confess to not understanding what The Big Society is and not really wanting to know. When people talk about it I keep picturing the big Cooperative Society store that once stood at the top of Watling Avenue. Somehow I don't think this is what Dave means.

I think he means a society in which people are able to do something more with their lives than just work and play. I agree with that idea wholeheartedly but am left wondering why this has anything to do with politicians and the state.

Sometime between 1890 and 1895 my great-grandfather gave up his job as a laboratory technician at Woolwich Arsenal, stopped subscribing to the football that he and his colleagues were wont to kick around Blackheath on a Saturday afternoon, and moved back to his native East End complete with wife and kids in tow. He had a new job as a fish salesman at Billingsgate.

This was the outward reason for his return to his native Stepney but the real reason was that he had chosen to move his Christian belief to another level to become a conduit for funds raised in the City of London to directly alleviate urban poverty. His life then evolved into a simple pattern of getting up at 3.00am, walking to Billingsgate where he worked until lunchtime, walking back home and then going out to see how the deserving poor were faring. He would return home later to be available to any who knocked on his door. He was a working class Jemina Durning.

This was the spirit of the times: namely, ordinary people determined to change things for the better because they were fed up with the pig-sty that rampant self-interest had made of their country. Fortunately for them they had the money to do it.

When my great-grandfather was seventy he retired and gave up his charity work. By this time the world had moved on, it was the Thirties and the LCC was doing positive things to tackle urban deprivation. He retired happy that what he had been doing was hopefully not going to be necessary again. Some hope!

Perhaps we should be asking ourselves as to what happened to the idea of Progress. Has progress just become a political slogan? It very much looks like it. The difficulty is that in taking over the tasks my great-grandfather and many others did for nothing the state spawned a professional coterie who have placed themselves as a charge on the provision of services. The charge they have placed on the provision of services verges on the excessive and is now endangering the very provision of those services. This is not Progress: this is going back to Old Corruption that Cobbett railed against!

A local library in a neighbouring town costs GBP100K pa to run. It is threatened with closure. There are six senior executives in charge of the town council all earning in excess of GBP100K pa. This does not include the 21 directors who comprise the remainder of the apparat. I can see value in the library: I can see no value in the apparat. So why is the library to close?

Go figure?

Paul,

As you hint at in your post, the Big Society is not really a practical proposition because of the red tape and / or legal risk involved with doing anything of the sort.

How on earth does he expect a big society to exist in parallel with a society where you are advised NOT to clear the pavement of snow in front of your house because if someone falls after you cleared it they could sue you. If you leave it alone for everyone to break their necks on..you are ok!!


The big society is an unworkable joke for the above described dynamic alone. Red tape, risk assessments, mountains of local and EU regulations combined with the creeping 'slip and trip' compensation culture.

Tear up all of the above and you may encourage voluntary social interaction again.

So off you go DC commission a year long report on the above with a panel of experts (who will all be already incumbents within the westminster bubble) to come up with recommendations.

On second thoughts...dont bother.

David Cameron is crying foul today regarding the charge that the "Big Society" is a cloak for the cuts. But there appears to be a correlation between when these ideas emerge and cuts in public services. The last two occasions this was mooted was in the 1980's and 1990's under the slogan of the "active citizen". That one sank without trace. This one could conceivably help to demonise an administration and ridicule its rhetoric. Time will tell.

But it will need more than rhetoric to rescue this Big Society

https://bit.ly/eLcyvL

I thought the 'Big Society' sounded drippy at first. I think, subconsciously, I was confounding the 'Big' part with a Big Mac !
I do wish it could be called something else.

I am not in the least party political and very rarely vote. But devolution to smaller community units and a call to a greater sense of helping others in a charitable way has struck a chord in me about my own selfishness.

big society is to make up for cuts to what are seen as non essential services, lets just get that one out the way.

Now to the resistance of charities or the likes taking over the running of these services, well I think it may come down to people still wanting some one to moan at if it is not to their liking. Look at any group of people ie like the small village I live in. There are the usual small number of people who will help out and organise everything. There are a small number who flit in and out but like to take charge of everything and leave the donkey work to the small number of people who always help out, and then there is the larger group who dont help out for various reasons from, cant be bothered to too busy working etc. I dont know if this is a fair representation of communities across the UK but I would hazard a guess that it is close enough.

All that Dave and Co are doing is a continuation of what Labour did and the Tories did before that and that is a continuation of their small government let the markets decide mantra

I stumbled across these programs last night having not seen them on the Beeb at the time and it explains very well what is going on. There are many competing interest groups trying to take the lead and they are becoming more apparent on the news being presented as experts or view points on many subjects , many of which are represented in part by some elements of the Media

beeb progs here
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=404227395387111085

..devolving power to the lowest level so neighbourhoods take control of their destiny; opening up our public services, putting trust in professionals and power in the hands of the people they serve; and encouraging volunteering and social action so people contribute more to their community."

I have yet to meet a single person who disagrees with these principles...

I'll disagree with camerons statement for the following reasons

1. what is a neighbourhood? they don't 'take power' individuals do. As a neighbourhood coordinator i didn't take power i was gifted it by default because no one else wanted to do it. I have no oversight, no democratic accountability and i can set whatever standards i like and can control the flow of pertinent information to whomever i like.

2. Destiny? destiny? where does that idea come from? whose destiny? Blair talked about destiny. see how well that worked out.

[Destiny has been envisaged as fore-ordained by the Divine (for example, the Protestant concept of predestination) or unfolding through the exertions of human will, for example, in the American concept of Manifest Destiny: "By the 1850s it was generally believed in the United States that a superior American race was destined to shape the destiny of much of the world."[ [wiki]

3.opening up public services to...who? competition? The principle that underlies free markets is moral hazard. that things can go bust. If that possibility does not exist its not a free market but public subsidy. Should hospitals 'go bust', into administration?

4.putting trust in professional and the people they serve? and who do they serve? the profit motive? if they don't its not 'professional'?

5. the last seems almost fuedal? give up a day a week to serve the local lord of the manor stuff? when will it become compulsory to volunteer?

so the principles that paragraph is based on is some kind of religious mask for privatisation with no moral hazard.

this is why philosophy training is so important because it allows you unpack such bull manure and hold it up to the light and say 'behold the [contents of the] head of a fool'.

the big jedi mind trick is to say government is not the valid instrument of the people. that it is not a valid part of 'big society' and that the guardian class should not be burdened with 'thinking rationally about difficult issues'.

Uk democracy institutionalises incompetence and the Tories solution to that problem is to 'by pass the elected incompetence' rather than making sure the state is competent through ensuring anyone elected has had to pass competence tests.

Do we vote ships captains just from a party list? Or airline pilots? What if we did? would we not expect ships to sink and planes to crash? Then rather than getting competent ships captains and pilots the tories say we'll hand the ship and the plane over to the passengers because they have a collective wisdom? Its bonkers never mind irrational. Its as daft as handing the government over to the military because of a nebulous belief they will be more 'efficient' and 'value for money'.

this is all about dogma beliefs. which is why its crazy. given people are not trained in philosophy no wonder they go along with camerons statement and even agree with it and even probably nod wisely when someone in effect says ' Yes we should hand the plane over to the passengers because the system of party voting for pilots didn't work'.

the big society is a policy in response to a complete collapse of philosophy because uk education brainwashes people there is no such thing as 'the good'. And who will fill this power/philosophy vacuum? Religious groups and other extremists who will shinning eyed zeal will jump at the chance to indulge their pet theories?

I want to relate my experience of a Big Society “project” that seems to meet all the criteria but is struggling against Council cuts. This has the potential to be a real embarassment for David Cameron. I am sorry if this is a bit long but, as you will see, we are all volunteers, ordinary people, and desperate!

Barnet Museum is a small local museum, a registered charity, totally volunteer staffed, which has been in existence for over 80 years. (I am a volunteer at the Museum). The Museum receives a small grant (£3.5K) from the Council and has been housed for all its 80 years in a building owned by the Council. The building is Georgian and an exhibit in itself; it is in the centre of the area it covers (Chipping Barnet – a discrete part of the massive London Borough of Barnet).

The Council has said that the total funding for the Museum is £28K which comprises the £3.5K and other charges (utilities and some unclear) that the Council pays in respect of the building. The Council announced in December that all funding for the Museum will cease from April 2011.

We, the Museum, have put forward an alternative operating model: we have requested that the Council transfers the building to the Museum under the Asset Transfer provisions of development trust legislation; we would then take on responsibility for the running costs which, even if the Council continues its direct grant (£3.5K), will save the Council taxpayers over £20K pa. We have quoted the Big Society initiative and pointed out that the Museum would cease to exist if the Council moved it to another location (all the exhibits belong to the Museum not the Council) or if a market rent (some £40K pa) was charged. If the Council sells the building it would mean the end of the Museum but it would not be easy or cheap, there is 80 years worth of custom and practice to unravel.

Councillor Robert Rams of Barnet Council (yes, the same council that lost £28million in Iceland), faced with our workable alternative, simply stated that the Council will not transfer the building to Barnet Museum unless for a commercial rent or a sale of the building.

It appears that Asset Stripping trumps Big Society. Does anyone of any standing know or care? Does David Cameron realise how his vision is being mocked? Does PM and his office have any influence?

In summary, Barnet Council is faced with a potential political success, a Big Society volunteer group providing a popular service at minimal cost to the Council taxpayer OR a difficult, expensive, unpopular, and destructive piece of cultural vandalism.

The decision making Cabinet takes place on Monday 14th February; it is incredible that a Conservative Prime Minister’s initiative is being undermined by a Conservative Council.

If a well established and popular volunteer-based community organisation such as Barnet Museum cannot succeed, I am afraid the Prime Minister’s vision is dead in the water.

For more background see the preamble to our petition and please read some of the petitioners’ comments to gauge the depth of feeling:

https://www.gopetition.com/petition/41281.html

We should appreciate any help, advice or intervention.

Regards,

Mike Noronha

For Barnet Museum

9. museums, libraries, universities, building worship etc are legacy models of education. make your place a 3d online gallery. google has done that with art galleries. it is unreasonable to expect public money that should be used for the poor and needy be diverted for people's private hobby?

@9 Signed. @10 There is plenty of money for all of these things - at least, there would be if we had a properly progressive tax system, as we did when I was young.

I was brought up in a house full of books, but I got the library habit young, as my father took me there with him every week. My education came at least as much from public libraries as from school. The libraries were at the heart of the community: I used to meet friends there.

The Big Mac Society (thanks @6) is the Tories expecting ordinary people to do more and pay more to help subsidise the bankers and the tax avoiders (including those in cabinet). So much for the pretence of "One Nation Conservatism".

This will not end well. Either the new feudalism will triumph, and Britons, doped by Sky-plus boxes and trivia, will meekly accept their serfdom, OR the anger will gradually grow 'til it erupts in violence. I have never been keen on revolution, but this time I will be there at the barricades.

It does not seem that long ago that a previous Tory prime minister was telling there is 'no such thing as society'. I do wish they would make up their minds.

Re 9: Local councils were once proud to own historic buildings in trust for future generations. Sadly now they are just seen as so many development opportunities, such as Bristol City Council selling off parks for redevelopment.

If The Big Society is about devolving power to the lowest level, it seems strange that so far it has involved replacing grants given to charities by locally elected councils with grants given by central government. There is plenty to dislike about local councils (see asset stripping, above) but at least they are local and empowering them with some more responsibility might yield a pleasent surprise.

Meanwhile, away from the government manipulated headlines, more evidence about what is really going on:

https://www.neweconomics.org/press-releases/are-british-banks-getting-billions-in-hidden-subsidies-asks-nef

9 MickeyN

I know your museum and have visited on a number of occasions. Last time I purchased a book on Drovers as I am a descendant of Scots cattle drovers who based themselves in Chipping Barnet for access to the London stock and meat markets. The names of distant cousins are written on the war memorial across the road. My frail mother is in a nursing home near there, a resident of the borough since 1942, and paying GBP 2.7K per month for her own care. My late father was a former Labour prospective parliamentary candidate for that constituency.

No doubt if Barnet Council returned all the digital tellies each of their senior executives have in their offices they would soon find the GBP 3.5K you need to stay open. The remainder of the annual sum designated by the Council is probably based on a nominal rental for the building. Yet knowning that building, if it was put out for commercial rent then it would need extensive refurbishment to meet the required standard and the parking there is quite awful!

I applaud your idea for a development trust. I am involved with another regional musuem elsewhere, I cannot say where as we are still engaged in the consultative process, but we have been able to encourage the local authority to move the musuem to a developmental trust. We were fortunate to find a sensible councillor to support our view. This will involve a lot of work but it is quite a feasible project. The good thing is that its promotion will create opportunties for developing historical, archaeological and design projects within the local economy. It is a positive thing which will generate other benefits that just a group of glass cases for the school children to gawp at. Maybe this is what Dave means by a Big Society? It would be nice to know.

Barnet Council has never been without its bean-counters. I spent half my life fighting its arrogance before I realised a simple truth about London. The place is now so full of opportunists out to line their pockets that there is no room left there for honest folk. If the rest of the country doesn't wake up then that sort of neighbourhood is the future for us all.

This is no longer about to cut or not cut. It is about who do they think we are? The cuts are being deliberately structured by the apparat and their political puppets to hurt the people as hard as they can to ensure that we remain subservient. My view is that we had libraries all through the war but we did not have the apparat. The museums and libraries add value: what does the apparat do? Like bankers, they leach off the nation. Their rule must cease!

The BBC has skilfully linked the Big Society with spending cuts and has trawled for opposition. You are taking feedback between BBC consumers and the BBC’s own biased output public opinion.

Public opinion manipulated by indoctrination and propaganda may turn out to be shallow, so let’s wait and see.

#15 Stanilic, makes the point that libraries were kept going through the War: which resonates with a thought that has been growing in the back of my mind for some time.

There is now more money circulating in the UK that there has ever been: and yet we are constantly being told that we can't afford this, that or the other. All sorts of services are being cut - and yet Government spending, in cash terms, is still going up. How is it that we have become so rich that we can't afford these things?

On the Big Society question, I would observe that if you go back to a tribal/clan, or even a feudal, society then there was a structure of reciprocal dependence in which the Chief/Lord owed their position to the loyalty of the clan/serfs and was obliged to lead and look after them. This has been replaced by a society in which contributions are made through taxation, and then administered by a professional bureaucracy.

I really belive that there are values beyond monetary values. But our (economic) noblesse are no longer obliged to do more than to pay their taxes (those they can't avoid): and it jars when we are offered the opportunity to contribute to a Big Society.

#16 KennethM
"Public opinion manipulated by indoctrination and propaganda may turn out to be shallow, so let’s wait and see."
OK Ken (or should I call you Kenneth? don't want to be shallow after all) We humble folk on here are all agog, waiting for you to deliver a chapter and verse defence of 'Big Society', explaining what exactly that 'policy' includes. We are desperate to find out what 'Big Society' really means for us who are expected to take over the running of local services. In Central Office, (I assume you are employed in Central Office, to rebut these blog thingies on the pinko Beeb) your Policy Criticism Rebutment Facilitator seems to have missed that your second sentence seems to make no sense at all. Go on, make our day, and explain please what 'Big Society' means so that we can demolish it without the distortion of the BBC thought police which you so evidently fear. It is a free country, isn't it?

To get a flavour of the 'Big Society' look at the frequent use of teaching assistants who are being increasingly used to substitute qualified professional staff at less than half the cost - initially to cover for a few hours but more now to provide a 'barefoot' supply service often performing teaching for days on end. These TA's are often not qualified or properly trained and many are just 'do gooders' with too much time on their hands. Next step is to substitute TA's with VTA's - volunteering teaching assistants who wont cost a bean.

BIG SOCIETY - SMALL MINDS

As I keep saying: SCHOOL is the 'Emperor Elephant' in the room, all dressed up with nothing to say.

School is BIG GOVERNMENT, from two years old to sixteen (soon 18). It robs 'parenting and the rudiments of parenting' from the young, while INSTITUTIONALISING the final 'output' The product re-distils with each generation, concentrating the error.

The result is increasingly immature society - SMALL PEOPLE.

This is evident in every aspect of every society that schools its young.

Nuff sed.

I'm having trouble identifying "middle England" who prefer to make charitable donations to well-digging in Bangladesh to supporting local libraries. The only people I can think of who might fit this description are Cherie Blair (India) and Gordon Brown (Africa) and Chris Mullin (anywhere but here). Can you be more specific?

17 tFoth

I have been thinking the same way for some time. The professional apparatchiks came into prominence after the war on the back of accelerated government spending. For example, the nationalisation of the railways did not lead to much investment in railway infrastructure but to the creation of a huge bureaucracy at Euston. They even built a nice big tower for it to live in.

At the same time the old ruling caste went into decay, either selling up or moving all their wealth into what are known as tax efficient vehicles. Whilst they retained local loyalties they gave up their primary function as a ruling class.

As one much given to egalitarian values this does not trouble me. But what does concern me is that this old ruling caste has now been substituted by another, which I choose to call the apparat, which is usually paid far more than the old lot ever were and which lacks the most basic decency and integrity.

To the new rulers of Britain winning is everything, their wealth does not depend upon their estates and the welfare of their tenants but on the budgets and reports they command. Furthermore they keep their money portable so that it is not tied down to property and ventures within the UK.

It is no wonder there has been no attempt to bring the banks to book as the values of the bankers are reflected in the values of the apparat. Fill your boots as this is your one chance of making it big. I am sorry but this is no way to run a country. To me austerity has to mean greater equality so that less can be made to go further. Sadly I see more austerity but no equality, so that less becomes lesser for the majority.

I don't particularly care for what these cuts are doing to us down here in The East End. I live on The [Personal details removed by Moderator] and our private landlord (unaffected by the cuts mind you) installed these very sorely needed, very effective high security gates across our estate -- you can see examples here

these are on [Personal details removed by Moderator] but found on other buildings as well

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

and these are examples of what is installed estate wide

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

ASB on The [Personal details removed by Moderator] has been markedly reduced compared to what it was like even a year ago. But at the same time I've got friends on neighbouring, council run estate and ASB there - having moved from our estate and other private estates - is skyrocketing. Council can't afford the same level of security either, so there you go.

Are gated communities part of The Big Society? If so, do all members of The Big Society get the benefit of such security measures?

@22 "...
I have been thinking the same way for some time. The professional apparatchiks came into prominence after the war ....." etc.

This brings me back to Pauls "kicking off" threads, and in particualar "the graduate with no future".

I have spent a lifetime involved in education, often as a "square peg", and I beleive in it passionately. A good education enriches ones personal life and that of society in general - vastly. However, someone still needs to do the dirty jobs, and there is no shame in doing them. In fact, if you are lucky enough to have a job you enjoy, why should you be paid substantially more than people whose jobs are necessary, but intrinsically unenjoyable?

Perahps we should share the dirty jobs - all UK residents must do their share no matter how wealthy? Perhaps university tuition should be free to all citizens in return for x hours of dirty community service? (And unavailable to those who don't.) Perhaps further, those aspiring to stand for Parliament should have to do 2x hours? All this would require stringent monitoring against nepotism and favouritism. But it might be a foundation of a genuine "Big Society", rather than just BS.

24 Sasha

After I graduated I worked in pubs and offies because I wanted to learn about real life. Time and again people asked me what was I doing wasting my education amongst the hoi polloi. My answer was that life has to have meaning, a context that is greater than the individual. I have to feel I have earned my wage.

Our culture has evolved in such a way that the golden pheasants rise to the top only to become completely disconnected from wider society. Many are not even aware that they are privileged. That is not a life, it is an indulgence.

Education never ceases and there needs to be a lot more of it in the lives of ordinary people. Hence my passion for libraries and museums.

Dirty jobs are honest jobs. In my time I have known a number of sewer-men and they have all possessed quite fascinating thoughts and outlook. I can't see many people wanting that work but I can guarantee you will always find skilled and intelligent people doing it.

Lastly, not so long ago I was at a history seminar at a leading university. I got chatting to a lady who told me her son was an investment banker. About the same time there was a strike of dustmen. She remarked to me that whilst she did not know what an investment banker did, she did know what a dustman did and valued his role. She cheerfully placed the dustman above the investment banker.

Without the dirty jobs our civilisation can't work. Perhaps it is time to turn the world upside down?

@25 Stan

Amen to that! :-)

#9 Mickey N

I have signed your pertition as well, good luck with it.

Examples like yours brought to the media attension (preferably via one of jeremy Paxmans withering interviews) all help to highlight the massive disconnect between the way the ruling elite thing things work and how they actually work on the ground.

If you want Newsnight to use your story best to approach them directly via this link which will allow your implicit agreement to do so to be understood.

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8070734.stm

I know it is not a big story but it is a cracking real example of why 'The Big Society' falls down / is not connecting with the people and would be a nice little real excample for JP to get his teeth into during an interview.... Go for it.

As an idea I actually support the spirit of 'the Big Society (despite its lousy name and my earlier post), but the powers that be clearly dont have the first clue how to translate that idea into reality, passion (if it is genuine) is no use unless it is cooupled with pragmatism and abasic hands on functional understanding of our society.

They dont have the first clue of the basic hands on mechanics of how our society works.

What they need is people like #25 and others above who are not too proud to get thier hands dirty and know what they know, not by reading it in a book or reading the exec summary of a think tank output but by having lived it.

How many of our politicians in a position of power can say that?

It should be part of the constitution, at least 15 years doing something in the real world before being allowed to enter politics.

Below is a link to a letter written by an American man, 'Mark', nearing 60 years of age. He documents his professional career, hard-working, saving where possible and helping others when he could.

He documents his over 2 years of unemployment, of struggling to pay his rent, to pay for his diabetes' medication and his struggle to feed himself. He talks about the 'agonizing pain' of being hungry. His benefits have now been completely stopped.

Marks talks about the America he grew up in and how the America around him is alien to him. He wonders why the ordinary Americans are suffering in order to make the super-rich even richer. He wonders why bankrupting corporations and nations has been rewarded by even more Public money for the people who caused the problems whilst millions of Americans go hungry.

He talks about the reality facing him of trying to live on the streets and the decision that he has now taken.

https://www.zerohedge.com/article/disillusioned-99er-shares-his-disappointment-american-dream

You wonder what happened to 'Hope'. Seems that Hope is merely a word in the Bible and something that a US President once said.

#28

Are people really starving en-mass in the US?

The utter shame of it if that is true.

But there is an answer to it apparently (lifted from one of the comments on the link you posted)

''Better yet, throw a brick thru a Post Office window, sit down and wait to be arrested. You just guaranteed a First class ticket to a minimum security Federal Pen. with white collar criminals, cable tv, and three hots and a cot. ''

'16. At 10:36am on 14 Feb 2011, KennethM wrote:
Public opinion manipulated by indoctrination and propaganda..

Takes one back to another time in many ways...

'23. At 4:06pm on 14 Feb 2011, U14767085 wrote:
The [Personal details removed by Moderator]
[Personal details removed by Moderator]
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

... reminded me of those 'wartime' letters where more was redacted than left in!

https://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/376421341_564f439a61_o.png

Though, by way of contrast, only the personal detail is left.

Well as an ordinary chap in a Midland`s cathedral city (who has read Paul`s`s article) I can see clearly what this Big Society is....it`s a grand jamboree for everyone in the world and his extended family to rock up in Britain and use our public services to live much better than than they would in their country of origin.....so quite simply the big society in question is the World!

And the jamboree extends everywhere in Britain with hundreds of people from all over the world..including lots from China...all merrily wheeling prams around my city centre ....and while it`s unquestionably a lovely idea in theory don`t you think it`s time we were allowed to examine where it`s all going?

I know our "democracy" is a palpable fraud and that the BBC thought police will probably persecute me by not publishing this....but surely someone other than me can see the dangerous irresponsibility of this and the unfairness to those of us who were born here and paid tax and NI all our lives?

#18 tonyparksrun

I suspect your ignorance on the subject is because you have been trying to obtain information about the Big Society from the BBC. Much of what you have written and the cynicism that comes across seem to be lifted almost directly from typical BBC output.

I think you are already infected so it may be too late for you.

However, you may try going to the Conservative Party web site where you will find videos etc on the Big Society free from the BBC’s doctoring and spin.