Transcript of Nick Clegg interview

PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED

On Sunday 8 May Andrew Marr interviewed Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg

ANDREW MARR:

"Not exactly a photo finish," Nick Clegg ruefully observed, as the results of the AV referendum rolled in and his pet project, electoral reform, went down to a shattering defeat. The Liberal Democrats lost control of a string of councils, and this week the task of rebuilding the party begins. Nick Clegg is with me now. Good morning to you.

NICK CLEGG:

Good morning.

ANDREW MARR:

Your strategy is in tatters, is it not?

NICK CLEGG:

I don't think our strategy is in tatters for the simple reason that we went into coalition for reasons that I think still stand. The country was, in some respects still is, in an economic crisis and no-one won the election. We are playing a role in the national interest, in coalition, to sort that out. I think that long-term aim remains the same. Clearly in the short-term we've taken a real knock in the local elections, and the AV referendum was lost in spectacular fashion.

ANDREW MARR:

But I mean every single newspaper, every editorial, every columnist, every cartoon…

NICK CLEGG:

Will be wise with hindsight, no doubt.

ANDREW MARR:

Well, a lot of them were saying ahead of time that this was going to be a disaster, and they are unanimous that your party is now in terrible, terrible trouble, its very purpose in question.

NICK CLEGG:

No, well I disagree with that. Let's remember, yes the results were terrible, but nonetheless even in these very difficult circumstances, close to one in seven people still voted for us who voted in the elections. That's a platform from which we can recover. (Marr tries to interject) Can I just explain about what I think we are facing - and I think all parties by the way in governments all across the developed world who are having to get themselves out of an economically difficult situation are facing a similar challenge - which is how do you take people with you just as you're taking money out of public spending. The difference of course between ourselves and the Conservatives bluntly is that traditionally Conservative voters are accustomed, that that is what Conservative parties do. They almost expect it. Liberal Democrat voters - many of whom are in the public sector - are much, much more anxious about that, and that's why…

ANDREW MARR:

So you are, as it were, still a slightly left of centre party carrying out a right of centre programme.

NICK CLEGG:

No. No, no, no.

ANDREW MARR:

… which is why the Conservatives are, you know, taking the decisions and you're getting the blame for it.

NICK CLEGG:

No, I think that's a real mischaracterisation. We are a progressive party, a party of liberal reform. But - and here's the big but - do I think as a progressive politician, as a leader of the Liberal Democrats, that I think there is some neat, easy, magic wand alternative to what this government and indeed governments around the world are doing? No, there is nothing progressive about… (Marr tries to interject) Can I just finish? It's an incredibly important point, this. There is nothing progressive about borrowing £400m a day. That is money - it's not your money, it's not my money - it's money we borrow from future generations. I want that money to be kept for their public services, for their schools and hospitals, not put in the pockets of bond traders today. And just to underline the point, it's not as if there is an easy alternative. If you look at the small print of Labour's own deficit reduction plan, they would cut almost exactly as much in public spending this year…

ANDREW MARR:

More slowly.

NICK CLEGG:

No, this year for every £8 we're cutting, they would have cut £7. So ..

ANDREW MARR:

Well let me …

NICK CLEGG:

… in the absence of a good alternative, I accept that there is real pressure on us to explain to our traditional voters why we're doing this and why we think it's in the long-term interests of the country.

ANDREW MARR:

So all of those Liberal Democrat local leaders, the people who are standing in those great northern cities where you have been slaughtered have been saying this particular reduction programme this year and next year is too much too fast. We're on the ground. We understand what the effects of this are. Please, for goodness sake, go back and think again. And you're saying no, you're all wrong, your perspective is flawed and we will carry on just as before?

NICK CLEGG:

No. No, that is not… No, of course there are lessons to be learned. And the lesson I've learned listening to people on the doorsteps is that people want a louder Liberal Democrat voice in government.

ANDREW MARR:

So what does that mean on … When it comes to the economy, what does that mean?

NICK CLEGG:

Okay, let me just first tell you what I think it doesn't mean. It doesn't mean tit for tat politics in government. It doesn't mean ministers fighting like cats and dogs. At the end of the day, people want this government to govern. We've had to work very hard over the last year simply to prove that coalition governments can work. Remember the predictions a year ago that we wouldn't be able to do it. But what it does mean, it means that where we achieve Liberal Democrat policies in government, we've got to tell people about it. There's no point, you know, delivering fairer taxes, better pensions, more apprenticeships, new entitlement for two year olds, free pre-school support, a better cash settlement for schools. All of those things wouldn't have happened without Liberal Democrats and we've got to tell people.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) So looking ahead …

NICK CLEGG:

We need to show people where we are a moderating influence on the Conservatives. We need to stand up for our values and say that loud and clear. All of that I accept. That is the lesson I learn. What I think would be wrong…

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Well can I just question you on that …

NICK CLEGG:

… what I think would be wrong, back to your question, is that somehow this government - and it's a collective judgement - was wrong to say that we need to get the job done before the next general election of restoring prosperity and confidence to the British economy.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) So it sounds to me, sorry …

NICK CLEGG:

(over) That remains a crucial, a crucial vocation for this government.

ANDREW MARR:

It sounds to me that on the economy there will be no distinctive Liberal Democrat voice, that you are completely tied to the reduction programme. Or do you have things that you would like to see, for instance for taxpayers, for instance for lower income people coming out of the economic package that you negotiate?

NICK CLEGG:

We already have. We've protected those on incomes of £21,000 or less.

ANDREW MARR:

It hasn't been noticed in the country.

NICK CLEGG:

No, I accept … I've just said to you I totally accept that where we have done things - actually protecting people on low pay, taking 900,000 people on low pay out of paying any income tax altogether - we need to say that loud and clear. Do I …

ANDREW MARR:

And does there need to be more of that?

NICK CLEGG:

Yes, of course.

ANDREW MARR:

On helping lower income taxpayers, you need to go further?

NICK CLEGG:

There will be more, there will be more - absolutely, unambiguously yes. It means other things as well. Where we are dealing with new things - the NHS is a prominent example - we need to bring our particular influence to bear in a very clear manner.

ANDREW MARR:

Let's turn to health, which has been… there is now a pause for the health changes that Andrew Lansley was bringing in. I would like to ask whether this is just a pause so you can absorb some of the criticism from nurses and doctors, or whether after the pause we are going to see a different scheme going forward?

NICK CLEGG:

It is absolutely not just a pause for the sake of it. This is not a cosmetic exercise. There will be substantial, significant changes to the legislation. Let me just be very clear on this. As far as government legislation is concerned, no bill is better than a bad one, and I want to get this right. Getting these changes right, protecting the NHS rather than undermining it, is now my number one priority.

ANDREW MARR:

So can I be absolutely clear about that? That if you don't get the changes you think are essential to the health reforms, you will not allow this legislation to go ahead?

NICK CLEGG:

Of course not. I'm not going to ask Liberal Democrat MPs and Liberal Democrat peers to proceed with legislation on something as precious and cherished (particularly for Liberal Democrats) as the NHS unless I personally am satisfied that what these changes do is an evolutionary change in the NHS, not a disruptive revolution. And if I can just be very clear with you. One of the reasons I was so keen that we should have this pause is to listen to legitimate concerns, and they have already been coming thick and fast. Let me give you one example…

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Let me be specific, let me be specific.

NICK CLEGG:

… let me give you one example.

ANDREW MARR:

Okay.

NICK CLEGG:

Let me give you a very specific example. A lot of people have said to me - and I basically think they're right - they're saying you're going too fast, you're trying to meet artificial deadlines, you're forcing GPs to take on commissioning roles when they might not want to or aren't able to. I basically think they're right. We shouldn't…

ANDREW MARR:

So, sorry, GPs who don't want to be commissioning will not be forced to take over the commissioning role?

NICK CLEGG:

Absolutely. I think what we should now do is - which is a change - is an evolutionary approach that it only happens, this change only happens where people are willing and able to take on these new changes. If not, we shouldn't be forcing the pace according to artificial deadlines in a calendar.

ANDREW MARR:

And what about further safeguards over fears of privatisation by the back door?

NICK CLEGG:

Absolutely.

ANDREW MARR:

Your conference was very worked up about this.

NICK CLEGG:

Absolutely. And I think what you'll see in the legislation is clear guarantees that you're not going to have back-door privatisation in the NHS. Everybody I think accepts the NHS is an institution and it's actually part of the fabric of our life which needs to evolve. It can't stand still. How it evolves - and that's the key thing, it's an evolution, it's not a revolution - is crucial, and we're going to get the detail right. About that, I am very clear.

ANDREW MARR:

One of the reasons that you've been the target of such a lot of criticism, I think - including from your own party - were those early images from the Rose Garden I mentioned at the beginning of the show, in the sense that this was a Dave and Nick love-in, that you were texting each other in the evenings and you were very, very, you know, close. That was a mistake for you, wasn't it? That you were giving the wrong image to people?

NICK CLEGG:

As I said before, I think it isn't about the chemistry or dynamic between one individual and another. It's what is in the long-term interests of the country. You may think that sounds po-faced, but that remains…

ANDREW MARR:

Can we think about the image really…

NICK CLEGG:

Well okay, let me…

ANDREW MARR:

… the way you projected it?

NICK CLEGG:

Let's remember where we were a year ago. People sometimes I think have quite short memories. We were in the middle of an economic crisis. There was an economic firestorm breaking out across Europe. There were emergency summit meetings on the Sunday after the general election. People really felt the United Kingdom and other countries were near the precipice of outright fiscal crisis. That was one thing we needed to deal with. (Marr tries to interject) And the other one was screaming headline predictions that coalition government could never ever work.

ANDREW MARR:

Which is why you did that. But Vince Cable, your …

NICK CLEGG:

(over) So in the early stages, we needed to show that we could make it work and that we could sort out the economic crisis that this country was in.

ANDREW MARR:

Vince Cable talked about the "personal chumminess" being damaging. That's really what I'm coming down to. Is that chumminess now over? Is it going to be a different sort of relationship?

NICK CLEGG:

Well my own view is that so many of the kind of stereotypical portrayals of what goes on in government and politics are very far from actually what goes on. We've had a very clear businesslike partnership in what is a coalition government, in which we act in the long-term interests of the country but we retain and don't diminish our identities. And what I have learned over the last few weeks - because this is the message which has come loud and clear on the doorstep - is that people want to see us retain and not lose our identity. I don't think we have and I've got to now prove that we haven't, and that's exactly what will happen in the weeks and months to come.

ANDREW MARR:

Would you approve of the idea of an updated coalition agreement, a so-called Coalition 2.0?

NICK CLEGG:

We don't need to reinvent the wheel. What we do need to do…

ANDREW MARR:

So you don't need another agreement?

NICK CLEGG:

Well, look, we are making some very big, bold claims about what this government is going to do. So, for instance, we have said we are going to be the greenest government ever; we have said that we're going to make this one of the most child-friendly countries in Europe. Those are big challenges, big claims, which we need to substantiate, and clearly that will require on-going work, not least in the second half of this parliament. I don't think… It was never the intention and no-one should suggest that what we're going to do is some complete revamped coalition agreement. We need to see through many of the big changes that we want to see through.

ANDREW MARR:

But given what you've said about the way David Cameron handled the AV campaign, presumably the relationship between you in the weeks going forward cannot be the same as it was before?

NICK CLEGG:

Look, I'm not going to repeat… You know I think the worst thing to do once you've lost is start complaining.

ANDREW MARR:

No, no.

NICK CLEGG:

Let's move on, let's move on. We've got to dust ourselves down, get up and move on. What I totally accept is that if anyone was under any illusions that this coalition government was a two-party government with two distinct parties, there's no illusions left. We know that these are two parties which on that and other issues we strongly disagree. That doesn't mean, notwithstanding those disagreements, we can't proceed in a businesslike manner to do things which we judge to be in the long-term…

ANDREW MARR:

(over) And will you differentiate yourselves more as the coalition goes on?

NICK CLEGG:

Well I think …

ANDREW MARR:

Or will you still be shoulder to shoulder at the time of the next election?

NICK CLEGG:

You know I've always said - I've no doubt said it to you in this studio on previous occasions - that I think all governments evolve. And there's a natural evolution in a coalition government that in the first instance you have to work together to take lots of difficult early decisions, but of course over time your separate identities come out more. And the message, as I've said, that I've heard on the doorstep is people want to hear a louder Liberal Democrat voice in government.

ANDREW MARR:

You'll…

NICK CLEGG:

It's already very loud inside government.

ANDREW MARR:

Yuh, okay.

NICK CLEGG:

We've got to make sure the people hear it outside government.

ANDREW MARR:

You'll veto the health changes if they're not improved. What about Lords reform because this is something that has mattered to you? We've seen how interested the public are about voting reform. It may well be the case with the Lords as well.

NICK CLEGG:

Sure.

ANDREW MARR:

Do you think that's actually realistically going to go through?

NICK CLEGG:

I think Lords reform is really different to the AV referendum. Shall I tell you why? Because we've been talking about this as a country for over a hundred years. This is not a sort of Lib Dem fascination. It's been discussed for decades and decades and decades. All three parties at the last election are committed to wholesale reform of the House of Lords. It's in the coalition agreement. I think it's something we just need to do. I agree with you - it's not something that necessarily people are talking about in their sitting rooms and kitchens - but I do actually think, nonetheless, it's something we've talked about as a country for over a century, which we now should complete.

ANDREW MARR:

Front page of the Observer today, overture from Ed Miliband to Liberal Democrat ministers: come on, come over and join us. There is a progressive consensus. Leave this lot. How do you respond to that?

NICK CLEGG:

(laughs) Well just every time Ed Miliband seems to give an interview, he talks about the Liberal Democrats rather than himself. You know what I want to know is what is the Labour alternative to the difficult things we're doing? So far all I've heard is radio silence. And I think this constant sort of you know, tactics… Let's think big about what this country needs in the long-term.

ANDREW MARR:

Is there any possibility towards the end of this process - which is going to be very, very difficult for your party and we both know it - that you would actually move over and join the Conservatives?

NICK CLEGG:

Join the Conservatives?

ANDREW MARR:

Yes.

NICK CLEGG:

Oh never.

ANDREW MARR:

Never in your… You would prefer to leave public life rather than become a Conservative?

NICK CLEGG:

I'm not a Conservative. Never have been, never will be.

ANDREW MARR:

And you would prefer to leave public life?

NICK CLEGG:

Never ever ever.

ANDREW MARR:

You couldn't imagine yourself taking a Conservative peerage or doing anything like that?

NICK CLEGG:

Of course not! Absolutely not. I'm a Liberal Democrat to my core. I mean I'll be carried out in my coffin as a card carrying Liberal Democrat. Why? Because I believe passionately in Liberal values. There's a long, long tradition of that in British politics. Yes, I understand we're under pressure right now. I've heard what people have said on the doorstep. They want a louder Liberal Democrat voice and that's what we're going to deliver.

ANDREW MARR:

And those Liberal Democrat councillors finally (many of them defeated) who say that you should stand down, what is your message to them?

NICK CLEGG:

Look, I have many friends who run… You know my own city where I'm an MP, in Sheffield, we've just lost control, and my heart goes out to my friends and colleagues who've done a brilliant job for their local communities. Absolutely outstanding. In Sheffield's case, Newcastle's case, Hull's case - have also run brilliant councils.

ANDREW MARR:

And they're saying you are the problem, aren't they?

NICK CLEGG:

Well, actually, you know a very few number of people of course will come out of the woodwork and start making criticisms. But do on the whole, when I speak to them - and I've been speaking to scores of my colleagues during this weekend - do they accept that for the long-term interests of the country what we're doing, it's controversial, we need to explain particularly to our supporters who are less comfortable with it than traditional Conservative voters? Yes, they accept all of that and the vast, vast majority of them agree that what we need to do is be stronger in explaining what we're about in government, but certainly to deliver the long-term benefits to the country as a whole.

ANDREW MARR:

Nick Clegg, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

NICK CLEGG:

Thank you.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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