Goodbye to SATs

On Sunday 14 June Andrew Marr interviewed Michael Gove MP, shadow Education Secretary.

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

The Conservative spokesman Michael Gove explains how he would change the school testing system.

ANDREW MARR:

Michael Gove MP, shadow Education Secretary

Now of course in the middle of this glorious weather, lots of people are huddled inside because it is the middle of the exam season still.

Among the exams clearly in trouble, SATs and A Levels, and there is a real problem matching the expectations of parents with secondary school places available.

Now a lot of people assume that the Tories are going to return to power next year, so one of the big questions in education is how they'd shake the system up?

I'm joined by Michael Gove, the Shadow Education Secretary. Good morning.

MICHAEL GOVE:

Good morning, Andrew.

ANDREW MARR:

Can I start with the SATs tests?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Yuh.

ANDREW MARR:

Because, as we understand it, you are looking at the entire SATs system again and it is going.

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well what we want to do is we want to make sure that we have a system of testing and assessment which actually serves the interests of children. One of the problems that we had last year is that we had a SATs system that basically went into meltdown.

On Ed Balls' watch, we had a system of examinations which unfortunately went completely awry and parents, pupils, heads and teachers were all telling us that we needed to do something different, we needed to think again.

And our principal aim is to ensure that we have a system of testing which allows us to accurately measure how well individual children are doing, and also to accurately measure how well schools are doing and we're doing as a country. And that's why we think we need to change.

ANDREW MARR:

So just talk us through. If you're in power, what exactly happens to the SATs system and what, if anything, replaces it?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well at the moment you have tests which are taken at the end of primary school …

ANDREW MARR:

Yes.

MICHAEL GOVE:

… and one of the many concerns that people have is that that completely narrows teaching during the final year of primary school and all the focus is on drilling children just for those tests. Now we believe that what we should do is move those tests to secondary school. And the reason why is that when we've talked to the best comprehensive schools, the one thing they tell us is that they don't completely trust the SATs tests and they run their own tests anyway to check the literacy level, the reading age of children when they arrive, and also to check their knowledge and overall competence. And we thought, why is it the case that you need two sets of tests? If the very best secondary schools are running their own tests and the primary school tests are becoming increasingly discredited, why don't we move to one simple, unified system of testing at the beginning of secondary school?

ANDREW MARR:

Would that not mean that parents, and indeed the rest of us, didn't know how well primary schools had really done because there wouldn't be an overarching way of assessing how children had developed in primary school?

MICHAEL GOVE:

We'd have a better way of knowing how children had done at primary school because we'd free the final year for teaching in the broadest sense, in order to ensure that children had access to the most broad curriculum possible; and then when they arrive at secondary school, we find out genuinely how well they've been taught, how effectively they can read, how gifted they are at mathematics. And then, using those statistics and using the way in which the teachers have assessed the pupils at secondary school, we can work out which primary schools are doing brilliantly and which are doing less well.

ANDREW MARR:

So …

MICHAEL GOVE:

And the results can be traced back, so we can discover that St. James's School, for the sake of argument, is not producing the sorts of results you would have wanted, but Lime Grove Community School is doing brilliantly. We can learn from the good schools.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) So retrospectively you can look back …

MICHAEL GOVE:

Yes, absolutely.

ANDREW MARR:

But it also means, presumably, that parents can't use SATs tests to help get children into particular secondary schools? In other words, it abolishes any possibility of academic choice going into secondary schools.

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well no, it doesn't. What it does do is that it does help choice because it means that when you're leaving primary school, when you're making a choice about secondary school, you have the option of choosing - as you do at the moment - a wide range of secondary schools. We've also got a wide range of reforms, which we may talk about in a moment, which I think will enhance choice. But the crucial thing here is that because the information will be available about primary schools in a way that is more rigorous and more transparent, that also means that when people are forming a judgement about which primary schools are doing well and which less well, that that information will be there …

ANDREW MARR:

Right.

MICHAEL GOVE:

… to guide their choice. But the crucial thing about choice is that we believe that it should be parents choosing schools, not schools choosing pupils …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Sure, but …

MICHAEL GOVE:

… and for that, and for that reason you need transparent information and you also need …

ANDREW MARR:

Okay.

MICHAEL GOVE:

… a system which commands the confidence of professionals.

ANDREW MARR:

And for that to happen, you need more school places as well.

MICHAEL GOVE:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

You've talked about 220,000 extra school places …

MICHAEL GOVE:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

… and that's based on moving money from an existing … inside an existing budget, which frankly is going to disappear - or a lot of it's going to disappear. You're not going to have the money you need, are you, to make the reforms you'd like to?

MICHAEL GOVE:

We absolutely will do. One of the striking things about education reform is that you really need it more at times of economic stress because it's precisely at those moments when we are falling behind other countries - not just economically but educationally - that we need to emphasise reform. And if you look for example at Sweden, which is the country that we hope to emulate, Sweden was able to increase the number of school places and increase choice at a time of real economic hardship. Sweden introduced its educational reforms in the early 90s after that country had had a banking crisis, after that country was facing really grim economic times.

ANDREW MARR:

Yuh.

MICHAEL GOVE:

When we last reformed education significantly in the early 90s and we introduced grant maintained schools with more freedom and more choice, that was also against a background of economic austerity.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Right, but …

MICHAEL GOVE:

(over) It is a false choice to say that …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) … but this is not, it's not just economic …

MICHAEL GOVE:

(over) … you cannot have reform and also thrift.

ANDREW MARR:

It's not just economic austerity this time. There is a serious crisis in public spending. Your colleague Andrew Lansley, talking about health, made it clear - something that everybody in the country understands - that there are going to be some very, very tough choices ahead.

MICHAEL GOVE:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

Actually schools and education are not inside the protected zone of Conservative spending. I'm right, I think, in that?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well, Andrew, you're misinterpreting, I think …

ANDREW MARR:

Well …

MICHAEL GOVE:

… what Andrew was talking about. The crucial thing is that Andrew was talking about what Labour would do. He was talking specifically about the problems that all of us has - have rather - as a result of Labour's mismanagement of the economy. And it is the case …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Well whatever Labour would or would not do, your party is going to come into power (if it does) facing a real crisis, and there are going to need to be real cuts. Now politicians like yourself …

MICHAEL GOVE:

Yeah.

ANDREW MARR:

… are constantly saying let's be straight and honest with the public.

MICHAEL GOVE:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

We want a more honest politics in this country …

MICHAEL GOVE:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

And yet when that obvious truth is put to people like you, you always avoid talking about the need for real cuts across public spending. Andrew Lansley let the cat out of the bag …

MICHAEL GOVE:

No he didn't.

ANDREW MARR:

… but it was honest, it was honest.

MICHAEL GOVE:

Andrew didn't let the cat out of the bag. That's a line straight from the Labour playbook, which I'm sorry to hear you repeating. The point that Andrew made was that if you look at the figures that Gordon Brown is responsible for, then there will be a real terms cut in public spending under Labour. Now it's important, it's important …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) But not under, not under the Conservatives?

MICHAEL GOVE:

It's important, it's important to acknowledge that you have two approaches to the terrible economic crisis that we face. Labour say that they're going to invest more money. That is palpably untrue and you know it. David Cameron has said that we need a politics of austerity and thrift, we need spending restraint and we need to do more with less.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Which needs cuts, and you know it!

MICHAEL GOVE:

It means that we need to be more effective in the way in which we use public money. At the moment, the budget for the Department of Children, Schools and Families …

ANDREW MARR:

All I'm asking you is there is going to be less public money. You know it, I know it, people watching know it. Why can't you say it?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Because we … Well the reason why I am here is to explain to you today what we're going to do in order to try to make sure that money is spent more efficiently. The announcement I made earlier …

ANDREW MARR:

Okay.

MICHAEL GOVE:

… about testing is a way of ensuring that we avoid duplication. Announcements that I've made in the past about getting rid of Contact Point, the child database system, are about saving money. If you look at everything that we have announced on education, including the big structural reforms, they're about ensuring - as we've seen in Sweden, as we've seen in America - that you can improve results and at the same time save money.

ANDREW MARR:

Okay, okay Mich…

MICHAEL GOVE:

The big dividing line in politics is between the Conservatives - every one of whose policies …

ANDREW MARR:

Right, okay.

MICHAEL GOVE:

… is about ensuring that we save money …

ANDREW MARR:

Okay, thank you …

MICHAEL GOVE:

… and Labour is on a different planet.

ANDREW MARR:

Very, very good. Thank you very much indeed, Michael Gove, for joining us this morning.

INTERVIEW ENDS

Please note "The Andrew Marr Show" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

NB: This transcript was typed from a recording and not copied from an original script.

Because of the possibility of mis-hearing and the difficulty, in some cases, of identifying individual speakers, the BBC cannot vouch for its accuracy

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