'It just wasn't working': Badenoch on Post Office chairman's departure

As we mentioned earlier, one of the things Labour's shadow business secretary Jonathan Reynolds was asked about was the removal of Post Office chairman Henry Staunton, which was announced late on Saturday.

Reynolds said the scale of the Horizon scandal that led to wrongful convictions of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses was "so vast it's absolutely essential the right leadership is in place".

But he said that it was still important for the government to give "specific reasons" for Staunton's removal.

You can watch what Reynolds had to say below.

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It was another busy episode of Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg.

Here's a quick recap of the key points from today's show:

• Business secretary Kemi Badenoch denied working with a group of "rebel" MPs seeking to oust Rishi Sunak as prime minister. Badenoch said anyone who was suggesting she could replace Sunak was "stirring" and didn't have her best interests at heart
• Badenoch, who is widely regarded as one of the front runners to be the next Conservative leader, did not deny having leadership aspirations but said she wanted to be on the team of people focused on delivering for the country, not "bullies" who were infighting within the Tory Party
• She was also asked why she removed Post Office chairman Henry Staunton, saying she wanted to look at the entire business model of the organisation. The leadership of the company "just wasn't working," she added
• Labour's shadow business secretary Jonathan Reynolds denied the party's green pledges were confusing, saying the amount it could spend on any policy depended on the state of the economy
• Asked why voters weren't sure what Starmer stood for, he insisted the Labour leader had taken "clear positions" on a number of policies and praised the "courage" and "resilience" he had shown in overhauling the party since becoming leader
• He also said the government should give "specific reasons" for why Henry Staunton was ousted from his role as chairman of the Post Office
• Carlos Del Toro, US Secretary of the Navy, told Laura that the US and UK have a "moral responsibility" to protect ships in the Red Sea from Houthi attacks

One of the key moments of the morning was when Laura asked Kemi Badenoch about the departure of the Post Office chairman, Henry Staunton.

Why did Badenoch get rid of him?

You can watch the business secretary's full answer below:

Laura ends by returning to the panel.

She says the group of voters we've been mentioning were asked about who they'd like to see as prime minister who was not a politician - many of them mentioned personal finance expert Martin Lewis.

Asked for their own picks, Rosena Allin-Khan says her mum, saying "she makes you toe the line but she's fair".

Nadine Dorries says outgoing Liverpool manager Jurgen Klopp, saying he'd "knock heads together" and get things done.

Luke Tryll says legendary broadcaster David Attenborough when he was years younger. "Thirty years ago, I think he would have been perfect."

And that's it from the show. Stay with us for more updates and reaction to today's show.

Laura next asks the US Navy chief about military spending and whether more investment should be made on both sides of the Atlantic.

Earlier this week, Del Toro said the UK should be ready to review the size of its armed forces, with the conflict in the Middle East at risk of spreading and threats from Russia and China.

“Should Russia be successful in Ukraine, what does that say for what President Xi might do in the Pacific? What does that say for what President Putin might continue to do here in Europe?

“I don’t want to be an alarmist in any way, but I always argue that my responsibility as the secretary of the navy is to ensure that we have a navy that can deter and defend our economic interests in every possible way.”

Moving on to the conflict in Gaza, Del Toro is asked if he’s disappointed that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has hardened his attitude against a two-state solution with the Palestinians.

Del Toro says he believes, as US President Joe Biden does, that the US and UK should be supporting such a solution.

“But he [Biden] has also made it clear that that two-state solution necessarily can’t be Hamas, because they’ve proven to be the terrorists that they are,” he adds.

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Laura is now speaking to Carlos Del Toro, US Secretary of the Navy, on the Houthi’s ongoing attacks in the Red Sea, which he has referred to as “economic terrorism”.

She asks him what the point is of the US and UK continuing their airstrikes against the group when it has not deterred them.

“This isn't just about a military solution, it’s about a diplomatic solution,” replies Del Toro.

“We have a moral responsibility to protect. There are innocent merchant mariners from countries from around the globe who sail these ships for the economic benefit of all nations.”

When asked how long the strikes will continue, he says: “I think perhaps we should ask Iran that question. Will they continue to support the Houthis financially and with weapons capabilities?”

He says his “hope and expectation is that it will not continue indefinitely”.

Laura asks about whether it's time for Starmer to call for a permanent ceasefire in Gaza.

Reynolds says the Labour party has been clear it wants to see a "sustainable ceasefire" on both sides and speaks about the "wider necessity" of a two-state solution and the release of more Israeli hostages.

He says the Labour leadership couldn't have previously called for a ceasefire - as some MPs in the party were calling for - when there was no willingness for Hamas to release hostages or to end violence on their side.

"Of course, we all desperately want to see the violence end, a proper peace process put in place and the humanitarian situation addressed with sufficient aid getting in to the people who need it."

And with that, the interview is over.

They move on now to the Post Office scandal.

Laura asks Reynolds if it was the right decision that Post Office chairman Henry Staunton was ousted by Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch.

Reynolds says the scale of the scandal is so vast it's absolutely essential the right leadership is in place.

But he says the government has to give "specific reasons" for why Staunton was removed, given he wasn't chairman at the time the convictions of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses based on information from faulty Horizon software was made.

Laura points to Labour's £28bn green pledge, saying the party's changing position on this is creating a lot of confusion.

Reynolds says people understand the party's ambition on green policies - but how much you can spend on a policy depends on the health of the economy.

He says the inheritance doesn't look good for whoever wins the next election.

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Laura says people feel cross about the state of the country, and voters aren't sure about what Starmer stands for.

Reynolds defends the "clear positions" Starmer has taken, such as proposals to tax private education, build more houses, and abolish non-dom status to help fund the NHS.

On the debate around Labour's spending on green policies, Reynolds says "how much you can spend on anything is determined by the state of the economy".

Laura respond, saying there is a perception that Starmer often changes his mind.

Reynolds says public finances and the cost of borrowing has changed a lot in the past few years, affecting the party's plans. He praises the "courage" and "resilience" Starmer has shown in overhauling the Labour party since he became leader.

"I think that tells you a lot about the kind of person Keir Starmer is," he says.

Laura is speaking to Labour's shadow business secretary Jonathan Reynolds now.

She says the clip we saw of voters earlier wasn't an endorsement for Starmer. Laura asks why there is not more enthusiasm for Starmer.

He says "of course" people feel this way because there has been an "unprecedented" squeeze on living standards and public services are not working as they should.

Reynolds adds that the only way those people will be convinced the political system will work for them is through delivery, not promises.

You can't do that from opposition, he says.

He says Starmer is the right person to lead because he is a working-class man who got to the top of his field and is in politics for the right reasons.

Rosena Allin-Khan says she was in Sir Keir Starmer's shadow cabinet for three and a half years and praised his "incredible integrity".

Asked about whether she is in disagreement with Starmer about the position Labour should take on the Israel-Gaza war, she says she has been consistently clear that she wants an immediate ceasefire and the release of Israeli hostages, and speaks about the humanitarian crisis in the territory.

"Our prime minister has a duty to call that out."

With that, the Badenoch interview is over and we move to the panel.

Nadine Dorries says the Conservatives were just five points behind Labour in the polls on the day Boris Johnson was removed as prime minister, compared to a much bigger lag behind Labour now.

Dorries accuses Badenoch of launching a "botched leadership attempt" against Sunak last December, and says "rebels" like Badenoch should get behind Sunak.

She accuses Badenoch and others of a "moral dereliction" of their duty to serve the public.

Badenoch goes on to say there were various disagreements within the Post Office board and a change of personnel was required.

"I don't want to do HR on live TV," she says.

"These are human beings that we're talking about", she says, adding the Post Office needs someone who can chair the board effectively.

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Badenoch and Laura next discuss Post Office chairman Henry Staunton stepping down.

Laura asks her why she removed Staunton and what her concerns were.

Badenoch says when she became business secretary she was focused on getting compensation paid to sub-postmasters and making sure it was fair.

She also says she wanted to look at the governance around the Post Office, and that's when she decided a new chair was needed.

"It is very difficult to be asked to stand down from a position, but I decided given all of the difficulties the Post Office is having, it’s not just about Horizon, it’s about the entire business model, how we make it work, that we needed someone who could chair a board that was able to deal with these things effectively," she says.

"It just wasn't working."

Asked whether she has aspirations to lead the Conservative Party, Badenoch says "you never really know these things until you're in the moment", but says she feels Sunak is the right person to do the job.

She also hits out against the "nasty and personal" attacks against Sunak during the leadership campaign to replace Liz Truss.

Badenoch says she wants to be on the team of people focused on delivering for the country, not "bullies" focused on infighting.

Laura tells Badenoch her colleagues do discuss things like internal politics.

She says that in this morning's papers Badenoch is described as being in poll position with the "rebels" as someone who could replace Rishi Sunak as Conservative leader and potentially defeat Sir Keir Starmer at a general election.

Laura asks Badenoch if she denies having a discussion with those rebels.

Badenoch says that apart from calling senior MP Simon Clarke to tell him to stop what he was doing - in calling for Rishi Sunak to go - "absolutely".

She says all of these reports are anonymous briefings.

"Who are these people? My friends would never do that, my friends care about me," she says.

"The people who are stirring, they don't care about me."

She says it's about them and their personal interests, and the vast majority of people in the party are working to deliver a Conservative government.

Badenoch is asked about senior Tory MP Simon Clarke this week calling for Rishi Sunak to go.

She says she rang Simon Clarke and asked him what he was doing when he challenged Sunak earlier this week.

She says its healthy to have a debate about the party, but doing so in public gives the impression that the party is more focused on internal matters than the issues facing the country.